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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
 Posted - 04/28/2006 : 00:57:50
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Hi everybirdie,
For those of you who are new to Macaw Dreams let me explain what the Round Table is. This is where we all sit around the table and have a great conversation about a bird related topic. The topics are ones that don't often get discussed in depth but are "deep" enough to have some lengthy discussions on. We encourage everyone to add their opinions whether you agree with the person sitting next to you or not. :) So here we go. Grab your coffee and pull up a comfy chair.
Round Table: Should there be a moratorium on breeding?
About 6 maybe 10 years ago there was a "trend" to own exotic birds. Remember that? Now, as many years later, those birds have matured and some of the owners have either grown tired of them or can't/wont deal with their maturity.
Several people tell me that they turned to their breeder for help only to find the breeder offering little to no support. They know about breeder birds but not necessarily companion birds. What's there answer? I know of one breeder who tells owners that their birds are becoming difficult because they need to breed. She then offers to take the bird back only to turn around and breed it. The cycle continues.
So here's my question. When is enough enough? Do you think we should have a moratorium on breeding, encouraging people to adopt older birds? Would it be fair even though many of us bought chicks ourselves? Is it time for a moratorium or should breeders just continue producing more parrots?.
OK, grab a refill on your coffee, get comfy and chime in.
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here"
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Toy
Top Gold Member
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2006 : 06:03:45
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No coffee here, but I'll grab my herbal ice tea ;).........
>>When is enough enough?<<
It's gone beyond it already. There's way too many in rescues, stuffed in back rooms, closets or garages. Left alone with little or no attention, stuck in cages unable to move about & slowly dieing a lonely death.
>>Do you think we should have a moratorium on breeding, encouraging people to adopt older birds?<<
Those who adopt older birds should be told the good/bad/ugly of a mature bird before they adopt it. I think those who have older birds who have been thru several breeding seasons should offer up sound advise on how to deal with birds during this time. Even those who buy chicks will eventually end up with a mature bird & have the same issues to deal with, or even more, due to the lack of knowledge on how to properly raise the chick. We, as humans, are hands on. We NEED to touch & touching is/can be a big problem when it comes to parrots. It arouses them sexually, no matter the age, but they don't show it until they reach maturity, so you have no idea what you created until it's way too late.
>>Would it be fair even though many of us bought chicks ourselves?<<
We got 2 birds young. One at 6 months & the second at 7 months. Both have issues(feather destruction, phobias, etc). The reason....we loved on them too much as chicks, not knowing what we were doing at the time. 3rd bird was 2 years old (still considered young) when we got her & she has allot less issues than other two do. Now the 3rd one was NOT loved on by previous owners. In fact she was neglected. She is bonded to me as a mate, but the major issues like plucking, feather destruction, screaming, biting, etc are just not there.
>>Is it time for a moratorium or should breeders just continue producing more parrots?<<
I hate to see breeding stopped altogether, as some day there will be none in the wild :(. However breeders should slow it down big time. Less chicks is easy...just destroy the eggs & replace them with fake ones. Nature tells them to breed each season. You can't just put parrots together like you can dogs. Parrots choose their mates & stay paired up with them, so a bonded pair should remain together, but they don't need to raise a clutch each season.
To date there are NO books that offer up all the good/bad/ugly of parrot ownership. A book with sound info on the proper way to raise a parrot, so it hopefully doesn't become godzilla when it reaches maturity & then ends up stuffed in the garage/etc because the owner had no idea & is now at their wits end. A book like that just might help the birds & their owners live a good life without all the issues/etc. Even tho many are now on computers, people still look for a book for info when it comes to a pet, or they get offered up myths on how to raise them & then end up with a parrot that has a ton of issues.
Parrot ownership has come along way over the last 20 years. Toys have been introduced to keep them busy & burn off energy, diet has changed to offer up fresh foods, special lighting, avian medicine, better designed cages, playgyms, etc. What prospective owners should be told before they buy is the bad/ugly & know up front what they're in for.
Toy
Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. |
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twobob
Top Gold Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2006 : 03:04:50
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sticky issue. some breeders are just in it for the money, no matter what happens to the bird afterwards. we've adopted 3 birds with issues, bitting chomping and one a great dislike for humans. we've solved those issues as i've got the scars to prove it. lucky our severe had been in a back bedroom with no toys and limited contact with his rent, his main rent passed away and his wife put him in the back bedroom and 'controlled' him with a stick and spray bottle. we got him and took the chomps and he's turned out to be a sweetie, only chomps now when he's startled. he has started interacting with our cag even. also adopted a scarlet named jo who keep on being resold, brought back resold brought back, because folks couldn't do anything with him and were afraid of getting chomped. after 3 years and a lot of patience he's also turned out to be a pretty good companion. our sun conure was sold to us because his rents were moving and had him listed with their washer and dryer for sail. after visiting their home and looking at the condition he was living in we just had to bring him home. both of his legs were broken and he's missing a toe on both feet. after a lot of tlc and hands on loving he's now also a sweetie, a mite overprotective of us but gets along with our other flock members.
i believe all breeders should tell prospective bird purchasers about what they could expect as their bird gets older and have info on that and the care of them. it's sad but most don't supply this info, much less info on how to's and what if's. it's these type of breeders that give the other good ones a bad rep. i know there are rescues out there that are swamped with unwanted birds that folks got tired of and no longer want. i believe with education from the breeders on prospective buyers can and should cut down on this. as far as a moratorium i don't know since the wild population of most species of all birds is in decline all over the world. i thinks education of prospective owners/slaves of birds and a list of unscurpleous breeders in the busness just for the buck would help some. maybe a rating on those businesses, i don't know from whom would help. i also believe all prospective buyers should load up on all research and behavior of birds as they mature would also be a good thing for all concerned and it should come from breeders to maintain their reps. i don't have any quick fix idears on this subject, but breeders need to be regulated and rated for their care and follow up care with the ones they sell/pawn off on folks. as long a baby gal/boy sees a bird in a pet store some will get the i want i want one and will talk/throw tantrums untill their rents finally give in to the spoilt one and buy the little darlings a bird not realizing the attention span of a young humon with a pet won't last over a year or much shorter and then are 'stuck' with an unwanted beautiful animal that then gets abanded or worst turned loose or forgotting in a back room or garage. education maybe a solution, or telling little johnny or jill NO |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2006 : 03:15:14
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Here is Suzy's post. I just copied and pasted it here so we keep the round table topic all under one post. :) THANKS!
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I totally agree with Toy. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of birds out there that either need homes or are languishing in someone's home because they have lost interest or it's just too much trouble. I think one of the biggest problems is that exotic birds do not have the same legal protection as dogs and cats. Too many people want baby birds but do not know anything about what is to come as they age and to many breeders don't look past the cash. I am guilty of buying my first bird from a pet store and being one of these people without the proper information of keeping an exotic bird as a companion. However, I did my homework afterword, and I have taken full responsiblity for my fids. I researched and learned all I could. Many people do not do this as birds are often thought of, still, as ornaments and conversation pieces in homes.
There are to many irresponsible breeders out there that breed and sell because they can, without caring who is buying and what will become of the bird. Just as with cats and dogs, bird breeders can and often are, only in it for the money. They tell themselves that breeding will insure that exotics do not become extinct. But, as with dogs and cats, there will soon become a time when birds are euthanized just as routinely because they are turned in, let go, or good sanctuaries lose funding. There are many populations of wild parrots around the country now, birds that have been released on purpose or not carefully protected from getting away accidentally. At some point people will start to complain about these birds in their neighborhood because they eat the fruit from their trees or they make too much noise and then some government official will decide the birds are pests and need to be destroyed.
I don't think breeding should be stopped entirely, I just think breeders should be limited to the number of pairs they are allowed to breed. They should also have to be licensed and in order to be licensed they should have to pass a comprehensive exam to determine their ability and knowledge. Each state should limit the number of licenses they issue. Potential breeders should have their facilities inspected before licensing with a yearly inspection thereafter. Breeders must be held accountable for the care and placement of these birds. Breeders should be responsible for providing prospective buyers with information about the all the issues involved in the proper care of birds, both physically and emotionally, prior to selling the bird. Of course, this is not going to happen unless responsible bird owners get involved, urging their elected state officials to help stem the problem before it gets worse. Unfortunately, as with many other things, breeders do not regulate themselves. Laws, procedures, and fines may be the only way to get their attention.
I have a rehomed bird and know the issues involved with taking in an adult bird, but I also know the joy of seeing that bird thrive when provided with a good home and lots of love. I encourage anyone wanting an exotic bird to read, read, read, talk to other bird owners, and seriously consider adoption rather than buying a young bird. If the demand is not there, the irresponsible breeders won't be there.
SUZY[/navy] |
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Gpsyps
Top Gold Member
USA
308 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2006 : 18:04:45
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When is enough, enough?
I feel the answer is NOW! I feel we are already in trouble with the excessive number of parrots in Sanctuarys, Pet Stores, Shelters and Foster Homes. The biggest problem is the babies. Everyone wants a baby and Yes were guilty of it as well! The problem is that the number of breeders is accumulating rapidly. And when no one wants a baby after it's a year beyond those continue to sit unwanted and then the new babies come and so on and so on.
Then as Angie brought up, most of the breeders out there do not offer any support after you bring this bundle of joy home. We bring them home and think life is wonderful and this life/reality kicks back in and the new birdie takes a back seat. Or life changes, a new relationship comes into place or a new child and so on.
Or as Toy stated were clearly not educated on how to handle them without causing the hormones to sound off like an alarm.
They truly are a joy for those whom are dedicated. And they can be wonderful companions. But the reality is they do wake up on the wrong side of the perch many times a week. You can rub a feather the wrong way and tick them off. There is always two sides to the coin. And the other side is not seen until later. Beyond the cuddly stages. We don't have a clue of what were in for yet. In a way its a blind responsibility.
I truly feel that we need some control on breeding. Their needs to be some regulations. It cannot continue the way it is today. Parronts should be required to take classes before adoption and at least one year after wards if not more. Times change, the birds change and we will never be equipped enough to deal with them without educating ourselves.
Their are some good breeders out there and then there are the ones just in it for the $$$. We truly need some new laws enforced to protect the fids involved and the naive adopters.
Just my two cents!
Natalie & Girls |
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Katie and Stanleys Mom
Top Gold Member
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2006 : 20:10:20
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Here are my thoughts: I am so happy that there are bird breeders out there. I would however, love to see birds completely BANNED from being sold in pet stores, bird stores and bird marts. I think Breeders would have to slow down their breeding programs if these places could not buy from the breeder to re-sell. Many breeders sell to these stores even if they tell you they don't! I think that anyone who buys a bird from a breeder should be required to obtain a permit for ownership that shows they have completed a series of classes on bird behavior and care. Breeding is not the problem in my mind, it is the "marketplace" and lack of education. Boards like this one as well as many bird lists that I am on have made huge strides in educating bird owners as to how to properly care and "feel" about their birds, but we need much more progress.
I spend many hours visiting bird stores. I LOVE to go to them, shop in them, learn about all the different species etc at these places but at the same time very few of them take good care of the birds there, teach buyers needed info or wean/fledge properly. They may start out with great intentions when opening their stores but they soon become burdensome and they simply need to cut corners to make any kind of profit. My favorite bird store is Bird Crazy in San Diego...it is a field trip for me. I know the owner fairly well and he has shared that his shop (which is huge) has not made a profit in over 3 years. He weans his birds way too early and way too fast (IMO) just so he can move them. He is drowning in legislation that makes running his store properly alomst impossible. I will say that for the most part Bird Crazy takes very good care of their birds but they don't invest in the customer's knowledge or ability of that customer before selling.
I think if bird stores, pet shops and bird marts sold all the "fun" stuff that is needed in being a good bird-mommie, taught classes about bird care/management, offered re-home placement services, and gave referrals of reputable breeders they could still maintain income and actually even make more money without sacrificing the birds themselves to do so.
Unfortunately people and animals will always struggle together because of the mind-set many people hold. There are so many people that view animals as simply something to entertain them, give them status, make them part of a certain group etc. When those individuals are bored or no longer have that temporal need, the animal becomes completely dispensible. Our only hope for any pet be it dog, cat or bird is EDUCATION and ACCOUNTABILITY!!! I do not believe in "animal rights" but i sure do believe we have the "right" and obligation to care for the animals that God placed on this planet for our enjoyment. We have certainly NOT been good stewards of that most precious gift!!!
To simply stop breeding birds would be a band-aid on a much bigger problem. We need to work like crazy to change the mindset of mankind. We need to teach the concept of responsibility to our children and grandchildren. We need to pass down the understanding of just what a precious gift we have been given. Out-side legislation or banning will not change hearts. Humans will simply re-place birds with something different for their temporal fix. We need to change hearts! We need education!!! We need accountability and it all starts with every one of us that owns any pet!
Off my soapbox now :)
Love and Scritches, Deanna
Contented wife of 25 years to Mark and Stay at home/homeschooling Mom to
Stella (B&G)
Stanley (DYHA)
Katie (CAG)
Tequila (OWA)
Iris (PBP)
Mouse and Maizy (the wonder Chihuahuas)
Nugget, Neville and Sophie (The poodle pack)and 4 human children: Andrea 22, Jimmy 18, Baxter 15, and Molly 7. |
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dianeisl
Starting Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2006 : 23:43:11
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When I look in the back of the bird magazines I think there are way too many breeders, and then I think what do they do with the ones that don't sell. I have also thought that many of these breeders could help the one that are becoming extinct, by working with the people who are trying to repopulate. Is this making any scence? Just things that make me go HUH.
diane |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2006 : 01:11:58
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Hi everybirdie,
Boy, everyone made some excellent points. I'm really enjoying sitting down and discussing this issue with all of you. I think I had three cups of coffee already! LOL. Deanna, speaking of bird stores. You know what I've noticed? After a new bird parent purchases a bird they will ask which cage they should buy. Most of the bird stores I've been in will sell them the smallest cage the bird will fit in.
For example, I over heard a shop owner telling a customer that the cage she wanted (which was small) was large enough for her new Grey. I'm thinking to myself, that cage should be for a budgie. :(
You would think the shop owner would push for the largest cage because of more money but that's not the case. They don't push large cages, which the birds need, because they are worried about loosing a sale. Can you imagine spending $1,500 dollars on a bird and then being told you have to dish out another $600.00 for a cage? Not to mention the TOYS and PERCHES that have to go in it.
Of course we've already been there and we understand the need for purchasing the largest cage possible but brand new bird owners don't often understand. They just go buy the shop owner's opinion. So, these birds go home in small cages and are locked up all day and eventually start the screaming fits. Right from the start, shop owners/breeders are setting birds up for failure.
I'm not sure what the solution is to the breeding situation but it's obvious that breeders are persuading new owners to purchase chicks, rather than older birds. They make them believe that an older bird will be too difficult for them to handle. Again, their bottom line is money not the welfare of the bird.
To top it off, I've also noticed that it's some of the breeders who are spreading old wives tales about certain species of birds. They don't educate themselves or read any of the latest research from Ornithologists. They still preach about how we need to keep our birds below our heads, at all times, because of the height/dominance issue. We of course, know this isn't true! Heck my birds are often 12 feet up. I'd be in trouble if this were true. :)
They also preach about how we need to become the "Top Bird" or LEADER of the flock right from the start. None of this advice is accurate and it's so old!
There are of course a few excellent breeders out there who are very knowledgeable about a certain species of birds they breed and sell. It's to bad they are being over shadowed by the lazy and uneducated ones.
I'm not sure whether a moratorium is the answer or not but it sure seems to me that we need to do SOMETHING.
OK, your turn. :)
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
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Suzy
Gold Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2006 : 01:22:08
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This article appeared in our local newspaper today. I think it is very timely regarding this discussion. Another problem with too many birds, not enough bird caregivers. This is something we don't like to think about but we should all do, make arrangements now for our fids when or if something happens and we are no longer there for them.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/story/5704394p-5110200c.html
Sorry, I tried to enter this as a quick link but couldn't figure how, so you will probably have to type it all in but is worth the effort.
Suzy |
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Toy
Top Gold Member
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2006 : 14:49:35
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Angie:
The pet store we have here, family owned, requires you buy the bird as a package deal. That means, bird, cage, perches, toys, food, etc. They want to make sure you go home with the right stuff. They only get in a few parrots every couple years, as people just can't afford them in my area.
They did show me how to hand feed moist pellets to Jasmine & told me to keep feeding her until she didn't want me to anymore. They also refused to sell her to a man who inquired abut buying ehr. They didn't feel he was parrot material. So there are a few good pet stores out there, but sadly the majority are like you described them.
They also got on the phone right away & called the vet when I noticed a U2 they had was ill. I checked back the next day & he was under a heat lamp & on meds, with a sign on his cage... do not touch me I'm sick. He has a bacterial infection & was over it in a few days. It's one pet store I can say where they do take care of their animals. Oh forgot a B&G was placed on a gum next to the cash register so he'd get socialized & when it was his nap time his cage was covered & they placed a sign on it...sleeping...shhhhh. Too bad more pet stores don't take the animals feelings & needs into consideration.
Toy
Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 15:29:44
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Now THAT's a good idea Toy! The one bird store, here in 'Vegas (Perch Pals) that was very reputable is closing. :( The family is retiring. There are a LOT of us who are as sad as can be. Why is it that the good ones close? :(
Suzy, I e-mailed that article to Noelle. That was a REALLY good article. Thank you so much for sharing it!
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
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MMOXIEE@aol.com
Top Gold Member
81 Posts |
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Katie and Stanleys Mom
Top Gold Member
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2006 : 10:51:01
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hi Angie!
have you ever been to For the Birds? Do you know Robin? This is my favorite bird store in Vegas...mainly because i love Robin :)
i got Stanley, my DYH there!
Deanna
Love and Scritches, Deanna
Contented wife of 25 years to Mark and Stay at home/homeschooling Mom to
Stella (B&G)
Stanley (DYHA)
Katie (CAG)
Tequila (OWA)
Iris (PBP)
Mouse and Maizy (the wonder Chihuahuas)
Nugget, Neville and Sophie (The poodle pack)and 4 human children: Andrea 22, Jimmy 18, Baxter 15, and Molly 7. |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2006 : 01:16:55
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OMG, Deanna do you live close to 'Vegas? Forgive me if you've already told me. I can't recall my own name sometimes. lol.
YES, I have heard of the store but I have never been there. I asked Donna (Sky the Hy's Momma) and she told me she's been there herself and that it was really nice. I YELLED at her for not sharing! ROTFL.
So now I'm going to go check it out. It's on the other side of town and in a "not so nice" neighborhood but when it comes to birds... "Have bird will travel" so I'm there!
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'll keep you posted!
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
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Suzy
Gold Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2006 : 23:16:56
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Here's another article from the local newspaper. Notice how many birds from the Connecticut group have already been uthanized--this article doesn't detail how many of the Texas birds were "killed" or how. Where do we start? Are there any breeders on this board? I would like to hear from them.
Pesky parakeets triumph
JULIA GLICK; The Associated Press
Published: May 5th, 2006 01:00 AM
Photo1
Enlarge image
DONNA MCWILLIAM/THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Parakeets build a nest at a substation in Dallas last month. It’s not known why they prefer electrical equipment for nests.
DALLAS – Frustrated by parakeets that tirelessly build huge nests on electrical equipment, power companies have tried about everything to stop the cute green birds. They’ve used chemical repellents, lasers and fake predators, and even killed some, to the outrage of bird lovers.
Now a Texas utility is trying a different approach, building a 40-foot platform near electrical towers to lure monk parakeets away from sensitive equipment. TXU Electric Delivery hopes other companies can eventually adopt the idea, but so far the parakeets refuse to leave their original digs.
“They have trees all around them, and now the platform, and yet they prefer the (electrical) switches,” spokeswoman Carol Peters said as about 40 lime-green birds chatted loudly and ignored the new nesting area.
Workers even placed twigs on the platform, but the birds carried the nesting materials back to their old homes.
In Connecticut, the nests have caused as many as 12 power outages and four fires since 1998, said Al Carbone, a spokesman for the power company United Illuminating. Last year, the utility handed about 190 captured birds over to the U.S. Department of Agriculture to be euthanized.
Experts believe the tenacious monk parakeet, a small parrot from South America, entered the U.S. when some birds escaped from shipping crates, probably in the 1960s.
Many states now consider them an invasive species and prohibit people from feeding or caring for the creatures. Colonies have also been found in Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Florida, Virginia, Washington and Louisiana, as well as in Canada.
No one knows for certain why they like to nest at electrical substations and in utility poles. The nests can grow as big as a small car and include multiple compartments for large flocks, said Mattie Sue Athan, a parrot behavior consultant who has written several books on the birds.
But the birds have achieved a loyal following of fans who admire their cleverness and the splash of tropical color they bring to urban areas.
“It is hard to argue with cute, and they are cute and smart and appealing birds,” Peters said. “But they are nesting in equipment that provides an essential service.”
Suzy |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2006 : 01:18:52
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Hi Suzy,
There are a couple of small breeders in our group including Phil. I saw him during the bird adoption/pick up and he said it's hard for him to get on line because his eyes are bothering him. :(
Hopefully he will be back soon.
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
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ROUND TABLE: Breeding Moratorium?
