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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2006 : 02:54:39
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Hi everybirdie, 
I'm sorry I haven't been around a lot these last few days. I'm finally settling into my new office but I still have lots to do, Monday the sign people will put my name up etc. I'll take photos soon. OK, enough about me.
Hey, I want to start something new here on our chat board. It's a new feature called, "Roundtable."
Once per week, more or less, someone will pick a birdie topic for all of us to openly discuss at our very own "roundtable."
The idea is to post a subject that we might not otherwise get around to discussing. I'd love to talk about some behavioral issues, even controversial ones. This way we can all gain some new perspectives regarding the raising of our birds. Maybe we can even share some articles regarding the roundtable topic.
Remember, we don't have to all agree, in fact I encourage various opinions! How else will we learn? We just have to remember that the "roundtable" is supposed to be a healthy, informative, discussion.
So, I'll be the first to get this weeks "Roundtable" going but I want YOU to come up with future topics. 
Let's use a dedicated subject line so we can easily differentiate the roundtable from regular posts. The subject line should read,
ROUNDTABLE:__________ (Then fill in your topic).
All right here's this week's "Roundtable"
Do our birds need Punishment?
Punishment: 1 : the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
There has been much controversy over this topic and recently I had a debate with a gentleman who was a firm believer that birds do respond to and do need "punishment." He E-mailed me after I told my Eclectus group that IMHO birds do not respond well to punishment and there is no need or reason for it.
IMO wild animals, in this case our birds, simply do not respond well to punishment nor do they understand it. Dr. Friedman disagrees. You can read her article here. http://www.estarbird.com/Punishment.html
I like Dr. Friedman but in my opinion (in this one article) it sounds like she's speaking from both sides of her mouth. Maybe it's her way of staying safe? 
Anyway, this guy argued that birds were basically like dogs...and needed discipline and punishment. I totally disagreed. I asked him to give me an example of when and why he punishes his birds. His answer is SO common.
He said, for example, his bird screams when he's on the phone, during important phone calls, so he punishes the bird by putting it in a back room and covering the cage. That's clearly punishment all right but what's the long term result? I've heard countless reports of bird owners putting their birds back in cages and covering the bird up, during the day, as a form of punishment. I just do NOT agree with this, at all.
I wrote back to this guy stating that I never, and I do mean never punish my birds. I explained that one of my birds also dislikes it when I'm on the phone but I don't punish him for it. I simply don't talk on the phone around him. How easy is that? See? No need for punishment at all. He was determined that his way worked much better than mine. LOL
After he wrote me back I got the impression that he's a "macho" kinda guy who wants to flex some muscle. His argument was that birds in the wild punish each other all of the time by biting or punishing a flock member by making him sit alone (or something) I totally disagree.
I say birds don't punish each other at all ... there's no doubt that they may bop each other on the head or tear out some feathers when one bird does something the other dislikes but is that punishment? I say no that's just a reaction.
So what's your opinion? Do birds need mild forms of punishment? Why is this so controversial? Is it mostly because of the definition of the word itself? Do you punish your birds, if so what's the punishment and what' the reward? If not, why don't you use punishment?
OK guys, our very first ROUNDTABLE discussion is now open.
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here"
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Toy
Top Gold Member
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 07:21:38
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What wild birds do to each other is more what I'd call "teaching" than punishing. Attacking each other, ripping out feathers of another bird, smacking each other is all related to territory or mating. Making one sit alone, etc is all related to the "Flock rules", which are required for the whole flock to survive. Young birds learn from the adults, just like any other animal.
Is tapping a parrot, gently, on the beak with your index finger & telling them no bite/watch the beak/be gentle punishing? I say no. It's teaching them a "rule" of your flock. There are times JaJaBinks gets angry/upset & she has attempted to bite. Momma is quicker 99.99% of the time, hehe. Parrots only have one defense & it's their beak. So when a parrot becomes upset/angry/etc their instincts tell them to use that huge CAN OPENER/wrecking tool on their face, LOL. By teaching them a cue, be it a word or very gentle tap on the beak, they learn to back down & not land those nasty bites they can when they get upset or angry.
As for the phone...Jengo says hello before I do. JaJaBinks likes to talk on the phone. If my birds are going off during phone calls I just walk to a different room. How hard is that??? This guy is a jerk!!!
Toy
Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. |
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Suzy
Gold Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 23:02:40
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Physical punishment, IMHO, is never OK for our birds. There is only one thing that my guys can do that will get negative attention, and that's biting for no "good reason." That happens rarely, but when it does they "go to jail." I know, it sounds terrible, but I was the legal administrator for the public defender office in our county for many years so it just kinda evolved into going to jail. The jail is the bathtub in the guest room. They are told, not in a loud way, but in a stern way that biting is bad and they have to go to jail. We put them in the bathtub for about five minutes. Then we take them out and just say, be a good bird now. It works for us. They certainly know what jail is and don't want to go there. Although it is a safe place, it is still a place which offers no stimulation and they can hear the "flock" and feel left out.
Suzy |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 23:54:30
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Hey Suzy, you don't use handcuffs on them do you? Do you read them their rights first? ROTFL.
OK, all jokes aside. The bathtub thing, I've heard of but it just doesn't sound rewarding nor necessary to me.
Birds are birds and don't need a "good reason" to bite. Sometimes bites can simply be an over abundance of energy and they simply can't contain it.
Question. Why not simply put your bird down or back in the cage and move on? If my guys get bitey I just work around it. :)
I strongly agree with you about physical punishment but being left in a bathtub doesn't sound like much fun either. I'd be greatly worried that this may lead to stress which could lead to some damaging behaviors such as plucking.
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
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Suzy
Gold Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 01:32:03
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Angie,
Don't know why we started doing it, probably read it somewhere on the net, as a time out kind of thing. I've had Jasper for 10 years now and it doesn't seem to be having any detrimental effect on him. As far as the biting thing, it usually happens when I change out his picnic bowls (they are on top of the cage as he is out of his cage all day since I have been retired). If he doesn't like what he sees, sometimes he will just reach over and bite me. It is not something we do very often, all we have to do is say, "do you want to go to jail," and that usually takes care of it (if we see it coming). I didn't know anything about parrots when I got him but I bought a book at the same time and I believe it was in the book. He has never picked, has beautiful feather and is very socialized.
I know he wasn't raised by his parents, so when we got him he just became like our child, and that's what we did with them when they misbehaved.
Suzy |
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Noelle
Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 09:26:57
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Hi Everyone -- I have a moment here at work and wanted to reply here:) For those of you who don't know me, I raised a B&G hen by herself for 7 1/2 years (lost to PDD) then 1 1/2 yrs. later took in Signal (MM now 8) who had spend her entire 2 1/2 years in a 30' x 20' outdoor aviary with 6 other macaws and then brought home the baby Kharma (B&G) at 3 months of age. Signal helped me raise her and they are the Best of pals:) Aspen is a 20 yr. old U2 who was given to me in 1993. Three other macaws have been given to me who are so special needs they have not been placed - so Even without all the babysitting parrots, this household is always full:)
My house has always been run pretty loosy goosy. Without anyone "running amok", my daily goal is to have each one looking forward to the next fun part of their day. From the moment they get up from their trundle beds to the time they go back, I want them anticipating the day. Setting them up for success sets Me up for success. Management and positive re-inforcement are both far easier for me than any kind of disciplin. I tell everyone who comes to the house, "This is camp, this is a Fun - stress-free place". "No, don't, and stop-it" are words you don't hear.
I don't have any "time-out" place and manage each one however is most comfortable to them. Everyone has the same routine here regardless of their species - all go outside to different places when I walk in the door. If there are any bullies on the gym, they don't get disciplined, they just get moved to another fun place. They are outside playing and busy as can be until they come back in - when they come in they are busy in their cages. I never expect them to sit still and always anticipate a bite with an enthusiastic alternative. Some who are unsteady on their feet are just picked up with a comfy towel. Everyone goes outside, all come in for dinner and all go to bed in a comfy place - each part of the day eagerly anticipated.
Oh I have to run into a meeting ! GRR work!:)
Noelle
www.squawknrockn.com
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Gpsyps
Top Gold Member
USA
308 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 09:41:10
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Hello it's Natalie and the Girls,
I don't punish the girls. I simply move them about when nippy. I try my best to pay attention to their surroundings and behavior. If I miss something it's on me. Every day is a new day and a learning day. I strongly do NOT believe punishment is necessary and/or ever needed.
Our fids are wild and remain wild within our homes. They communicate in various ways and that includes biting. This can come from boredom, fear, energy, protection of us, their food and surroundings.
Love, Education, Rewards and Patience, is all that's necessary!
Natalie & Girls |
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twobob
Top Gold Member
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 13:00:45
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touchy subject. i sometimes 'punish' our cag for biteing, not a real form of punishment, i just grab him by his head and hold him and tell him why i'm doing this and not to be biting. i've only done this when he was younger and it has worked, he no longer even offers to bite anyone, but if you try and rub him on his belly or back,he'll gently grab your finger, take it in his beak and move it and not apply any pressure to you finger at all. maybe it him just grownin up. i've also used this on our severe macaw and it has also worked well, no more biteing from him, he does the same thing as our cag. also our scarlet has learned by this 'punishment', but instead of removing your offending finger with his beak he will do it with his foot. as far as puttin them in their cage, we've never done that as 'punishment'. you know if they bite you why put them in their cage where their food and water is.
good subject angie and i'm sure we'll all learn from the different ways folks handle different situations with their owners. |
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spddy
Top Gold Member
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 21:17:41
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hello everyone,
I don't call it punishment in our house. More like having a bad day or getting into trouble. Animals are just like us, they can have a bad day or wake up on the wrong side of the bed.It's just patience you have to have with them, so what i do when 1 is screaming, I check to see why first then i go from there, but most of the time it is for attention so i get them out and let them play. If they have a bad day where biting what they want then I just put them in their cage( what i call their room) for a few minute and go back to see if they have a change of mind and most of the time their like ok dad i want to go play.lol
My saying is think ahead of them.
Hope everyones fids are safe and healthy.
phillip |
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pbyeerts
Top Gold Member
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 22:03:18
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The only problem we have with NIMO concerns unneccessary screaming during breeding season. He will scream on and on for no logical reason we can discern. He has a sleeping cage (regular macaw size cage) in our laundry room and we will put him in there when he begins screaming out of control so we do not lose our minds and our hearing. Nimo likes his sleeping cage so I don't think this is really punishment. We're removing him from our living room so we can have some peace and quiet.
I believe that aggression creates aggression in macaws and life in general. If NIMO is all stirred up and I was to yell or physically threaten him, he would scream or lunge worse. The same is generally true with people. Pamela
Pamela & Nimo |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 00:34:05
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Hi Pamela,
Many bird owners report that their birds scream for "no logical reason" but trust me, they DO have reasons but we don't always understand them. It could be mating calls or it could be his need to release energy.
I don't question why my birds scream, I just quickly work around it and keep them so busy and preoccupied that they don't have time to have screaming fits.
Have you tried putting him outside for some fresh air and sunshine?
Have you tried to stop the screaming before it starts? I can usually predict when my birds are gettng anxious and I nip the problem in the bud before it gets going. By the way, what does he do once he's in the laundry room? Does the screaming stop righ away?
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
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Toy
Top Gold Member
USA
390 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 05:49:36
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Mating calls for JaJaBinks are a weird raspy constant scream call. They almost sound like she is struggling/straining to get the sound out. It's a raspy garbled sound that reminds me of a person having a major asthma attack that also has a bad chest cold. The sound gets louder & louder until it's so loud the walls are cringing, LOL. I have learned to ignore it until it gets way too loud for my ears. Then I redirect her attention to something else.
Most of the time my birds are quiet. They have 2-3 times of the day they make sound for a few minutes & then it's dead silence. Jengo CAG seems to make more sound than the rest, as she goes thru her sounds/words/phrases like a broken record each day. Once she gets thru them all & has driven me nuts she stops. I guess she figures she's done her deed for the day, LOL.
Yes I agree they scream for a reason. Figuring out what the reason is isn't easy. Each scream sound has meaning. By studying my birds I've learned what they mean. Course playing the scream game with JaJaBinks & doing rooster calls with Jengo & Jasmine doesn't count right?? LOL. Hey we're having FUN :). OK I'm SICK, hehe.
Toy
Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. |
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pbyeerts
Top Gold Member
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 23:31:14
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We have tried for so long to figure out why Nimo screams during breeding season and there just isn't an answer we can come up with. We too thought it was a contact call, but it isn't because he does it when we're right there with him. I'll start a new thread in a day or 2 on this and see what answers I get from this marvelous crew. In a nutshell, Nimo doesn't appear to be screaming for contact calls, because he's hungry, tired, or bored. And when we put him in the laundry room, he'll continue to scream for a little while and then he quiets down and we we bring him back out with us. Sometimes he begins screaming immediately after his time out, and other times he is just fine - playful and quiet. He is more prone to scream when Mark (his favorite person) leaves the room, which we know and can tolerate. Pamela
Pamela & Nimo |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 22:45:52
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Pamela, sounds like you have a great topic for our next roundtable! I'll start doing my homework. :)
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
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Sigmundine
Top Gold Member
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 08:57:24
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I don't do punishment with our birds, because a) I'm not good with punishment, even with my kids, and b) I don't think they really understand it, but they do understand some negative reinforcement. With Rosabella, (our unpredictable little rosie cockatoo) several years ago, she got into a weird stage of biting. She would look all adorable and inviting, get on your finger and bite. I'm ashamed to admit that a couple of times, I shook her off my finger, because she wouldn't stop and I needed to end that bite. After a couple of those incidents, she stopped that behavior. I guess she didn't like getting shaken off, but I sure didn't like the bites! With Sarge Pepper and Francesca, that kind of weird unpredictable behavior never happens. When they bite, you know it's coming! I just try and prevent it, and if Sarge gets nippy, he goes on his tree stand and gets left alone for a while. That works! Sometimes if he gets too rambunctious, I give his tail a light tug, like a warning. He seems to understand that it means, "Chill". He responds well to that too. That's about the extent of punishment in our house. Right now I'm working with a yahoo help group with Francesca, our traumatized adoptee, and that group works with Dr. Friedman's teachings. It's slo-o-w going, but I think I am building up trust with Francesca.
Marie |
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macawdreams
Forum Admin
610 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 23:34:07
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Hi Marie,
I'm not all that familiar with 'Toos but I have several friends who own them and they all seem to report this biting stage. They tell me it happens during their 'Toos breeding season. As for shaking your finger? Hey, that was just a sudden reaction to PAIN. LOL. I also put my birds back on their tree or playgym when they get too excited. It's not that I'm ignoring them... I'm just giving them their space and moving on. :)
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
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ROUNDTABLE: Punishment?
