| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| macawdreams |
Posted - 03/05/2006 : 02:54:39
Hi everybirdie, 
I'm sorry I haven't been around a lot these last few days. I'm finally settling into my new office but I still have lots to do, Monday the sign people will put my name up etc. I'll take photos soon. OK, enough about me.
Hey, I want to start something new here on our chat board. It's a new feature called, "Roundtable."
Once per week, more or less, someone will pick a birdie topic for all of us to openly discuss at our very own "roundtable."
The idea is to post a subject that we might not otherwise get around to discussing. I'd love to talk about some behavioral issues, even controversial ones. This way we can all gain some new perspectives regarding the raising of our birds. Maybe we can even share some articles regarding the roundtable topic.
Remember, we don't have to all agree, in fact I encourage various opinions! How else will we learn? We just have to remember that the "roundtable" is supposed to be a healthy, informative, discussion.
So, I'll be the first to get this weeks "Roundtable" going but I want YOU to come up with future topics. 
Let's use a dedicated subject line so we can easily differentiate the roundtable from regular posts. The subject line should read,
ROUNDTABLE:__________ (Then fill in your topic).
All right here's this week's "Roundtable"
Do our birds need Punishment?
Punishment: 1 : the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
There has been much controversy over this topic and recently I had a debate with a gentleman who was a firm believer that birds do respond to and do need "punishment." He E-mailed me after I told my Eclectus group that IMHO birds do not respond well to punishment and there is no need or reason for it.
IMO wild animals, in this case our birds, simply do not respond well to punishment nor do they understand it. Dr. Friedman disagrees. You can read her article here. http://www.estarbird.com/Punishment.html
I like Dr. Friedman but in my opinion (in this one article) it sounds like she's speaking from both sides of her mouth. Maybe it's her way of staying safe? 
Anyway, this guy argued that birds were basically like dogs...and needed discipline and punishment. I totally disagreed. I asked him to give me an example of when and why he punishes his birds. His answer is SO common.
He said, for example, his bird screams when he's on the phone, during important phone calls, so he punishes the bird by putting it in a back room and covering the cage. That's clearly punishment all right but what's the long term result? I've heard countless reports of bird owners putting their birds back in cages and covering the bird up, during the day, as a form of punishment. I just do NOT agree with this, at all.
I wrote back to this guy stating that I never, and I do mean never punish my birds. I explained that one of my birds also dislikes it when I'm on the phone but I don't punish him for it. I simply don't talk on the phone around him. How easy is that? See? No need for punishment at all. He was determined that his way worked much better than mine. LOL
After he wrote me back I got the impression that he's a "macho" kinda guy who wants to flex some muscle. His argument was that birds in the wild punish each other all of the time by biting or punishing a flock member by making him sit alone (or something) I totally disagree.
I say birds don't punish each other at all ... there's no doubt that they may bop each other on the head or tear out some feathers when one bird does something the other dislikes but is that punishment? I say no that's just a reaction.
So what's your opinion? Do birds need mild forms of punishment? Why is this so controversial? Is it mostly because of the definition of the word itself? Do you punish your birds, if so what's the punishment and what' the reward? If not, why don't you use punishment?
OK guys, our very first ROUNDTABLE discussion is now open.
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| rex_and_me |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 19:27:24
I just try to have fun with Rex. I think he has truly been in a bad mood a few times. Sometimes I can scratch his way out of it, he loves for me to scratch his ears and under his beak, and under his wings. If I can't coax him out of it, I put him down and give him a few brazil nuts (in shell of course) to take his energy out on. Within a few minutes he's back to making those baby noises of his again and wanting to be fussed over. My angel will be 1 years old on April 12....YAY. Any suggestions for big birdie birthday fun???
Dee B |
| sandy3038 |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 09:06:13
We don't really "punish" at our house either. When one of ours gets nippy due to jealousy or just simply a bad mood, we just put our finger on their beak and say "be gentle, no biting". If that doesn't do the trip, we simply put them back on their playgym and walk away. They ususally want our attention enough to come back and not bite again. We try to just let them be birds without wrecking havock on the entire house! LOL. We have a pretty full house and for the most part, we have very few problems with any of them. They get out every minute we are home, fed well, given toys for entertainment while we are gone, and the center of attention when we are home. I think that keeps bad behaviour at bay. They know they are an important part of our lives and really want to make us happy so I don't think they act out on purpose...usually means something is bugging them.
Owned by: Moko the BGM, Jake and Little One BHCs, Indie the Great Billed Parrot, Nikki the Hahn's, Smokey the CAG, 6 Tiels, 4 Budgies, Zeke the Maine Coon Cat, and Rascal the Munchkin Cat.
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| rex_and_me |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 08:54:08
Sorry, I hav been away a while but this roundtabe thing sounds great. As for punishing Rex...I don't (at least I dont think so)Yes, he gets a little to excited with that beak of his but if he does, I put him down on his tree, or back in his cage for a few minutes. That usually works for us. I have tapped his beak...let me re-iterate that..."tapped" not "hit" or "flicked" his beak, and told him "no biting". His avian vet suggested this. This isn't somthing you do for every occasion. I can tell the difference between excited and angry and I try not to handle him at those times.
Dee B |
| Toy |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 21:27:30
I wonder how he'd like it if someone knocked him to the ground or punched him in the face every time he did something someone else assumed he shouldn't? What he is doing is breaking the birds spirit, the same as many did to horses & still do. This sickens me.
I have a friend in Sweden who was told to do this to her CAG. What ended up happening is the bird injured it's beak & also cracked it's keel bone, due to a bad landing, when she dropped it to the floor. To this day the bird refuses to step up & he's now pushing 12 years old. He has a major fear of being dropped.
To me this is a very cruel way to trying to teach a bird.
As far as a bird being uncomfortable on the floor..JaJaBinks (B&G MAcaw)loves to walk around on the floor, as does our CAG & my U2. None of them have a major fear of the floor & I have 5 Toy Poodles whom they walk right up to. They are treated like family. JaJaBinks often comes into the kitchen, climbs the dog gate & then I put her on the counter. She does this when it's time to do dishes, prepare meals, etc. If she doesn't climb the gate she walks around the kitchen, rolls up my rugs, gets into the cupboards, plays in the dogs water dish, & picks on me. What she is doing is no different than a human toddler would be doing. By letting them be part of your daily routine, talking to them like you would a small child, putting up with their child like behavour, you will find you have a much better companion than one you beat or scared into submisson.
The way to make a macaw a happy macaw is to make it's life full of FUN. They are super playful & are the only species of parrot in the wild that takes time each day to play. Being owned by a macaw means a few life style changes, but for the most part they will fit right in if you let them. They love to be included in daily chores, meals, etc. The more you include them the better they are. A happy macaw is not a screamer, but one who makes happy sounds/laughs/etc. They find ways to make up games & fun things. They are very curious by nature & love adventure. It's not uncommon for us to mute the TV so we can hear JaJaBinks playing in her cage & talking up a storm. She's so funny she has us laughing daily.
I wouldn't want a bird with a broken spirit or one who is forbidden to be what nature intended it to be just to prevent a nip or bite.
Toy
Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. |
| luvsmyfids |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 21:03:57
Okay, heres my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
I don't punish my children or grandchildren or my birds. I discipline them. Punishment has serious negative conontations where I believe that discipline means redirection of sorts or positive reinforcement.
I discipline my fids. Now let me explain. If I'm repeatedly being bitten and my redirection isn't working, it's cage time. I ask my fids if they want to go to bed. I also tell them to be a "good boy" or a "good girl" rather than constantly saying "no bite".
No = negative. Be a good boy or girl = positive reinforcement. At least to me. Hey, it worked with my kids!! lol
I don't ever hit my animals. Not my dogs, not my cats, and definitely not my birds. I also never hit my kids. Nope, not true. My oldest got a spanking when he was about 6 for hitting his teacher. As a former abused child and a former abused spouse, I dont believe that hitting is the solution.
But I do believe in redirection. If Thor, my 16 year old DYHA, bites me and draws blood he is immediately put back in his cage. He is told why he has to go back to his cage and that he is supposed to be a good boy.
The last few times that he has bitten me badly, (doesnt happen often, maybe twice a year), he started yelling, "Oh my God, Oh my God, YOU bit me, you bit me, mom!" Now how do you deal with that without laughing?!?!?
I think that we definitely need to redirect our birds actions but punish them? I couldnt use the tub or shower as a punishment as Suzy suggested because I want their bathing to be a positive thing. I dont want to hit because I know what thats like. I think everyone has their own way of dealing with negative behavior and its up to you to decide how to do it.
Laurie
Magick is found everywhere and in everything. |
| Katie and Stanleys Mom |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 10:36:59
Hello Everyone
I don't have a Macaw yet but wanted to ask a question that fits possibly in this catagory. I have posted this same question to my other bird list members and have gotten many different suggestions but most of them are not necessarily Macaw owners. I don't know why I have not asked advice here yet. Here was my original post:
Good Morning Everyone!
I want to get some feedback on a training technique I saw recently. I was at a bird store and witnessed the owner deal with his own personal "Big"
Macaws. These were his private birds all of which do not bite, nor nippy and are very sweet. They do not challenge him or try to get away with stuff. I have always enjoyed these 3 birds: Macho (B&G), Rio (GW) and Rudie (Scarlet).
They
are all very sweet, predictable, non aggressive birds. I had the opportunity to talk to him at length about how they all turned out that way. It happened that on this particular day he had just added another GW to his family and was working with her when I came in. He said I could "watch it in action"
and told me this was how he had taught all his birds not to bite. She was a young bird and had only been with him a few months but you could tell she really liked him. She had come from a home where her people could not deal with her, had received a few good nips and were now scared of her. He got her for free (wish I could have that happen to me :-)) Anyway here is the part I am really curious about. When she would lunge at him or attempt to bite him, he would drop her to the floor, fast and fairly hard. She was sitting perched on his arm which is how he was working with her. The minute her beak came down on any part of him, swoosh, down went his arm full force, the bird plummeting to the ground. Now of course with wings flapping the bird never hit hard, but here was the amazing thing: He spoke no words.he just waited for the GW to be uncomfortable down on the floor and then had her step up again on his hand. He did this 2 times and she completely stopped being poopie with him. He said this was their second session of this and that the first time he had to drop her 4-5 times. He thinks they will only need one more session. Ok, so what would you all say about this??? I have such mixed emotions. On one side I think it seems cruel and yet the bird is actually learning that biting has severe consequences and he is not getting wounded by that big beak. Ok, give me pros and cons that you all can see in this method.
TIA, Deanna
Love and Scritches, Deanna
Contented wife of 25 years to Mark and Mom to Stanley (DYHA)
Katie (CAG)
Mouse and Maizy (the wonder Chihuahuas)
Nugget, Neville and Sophie (The poodle pack)and 4 human children: Andrea 22, Jimmy 18, Baxter 15, and Molly 7. |
| macawdreams |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 23:34:07
Hi Marie,
I'm not all that familiar with 'Toos but I have several friends who own them and they all seem to report this biting stage. They tell me it happens during their 'Toos breeding season. As for shaking your finger? Hey, that was just a sudden reaction to PAIN. LOL. I also put my birds back on their tree or playgym when they get too excited. It's not that I'm ignoring them... I'm just giving them their space and moving on. :)
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
| Sigmundine |
Posted - 03/11/2006 : 08:57:24
I don't do punishment with our birds, because a) I'm not good with punishment, even with my kids, and b) I don't think they really understand it, but they do understand some negative reinforcement. With Rosabella, (our unpredictable little rosie cockatoo) several years ago, she got into a weird stage of biting. She would look all adorable and inviting, get on your finger and bite. I'm ashamed to admit that a couple of times, I shook her off my finger, because she wouldn't stop and I needed to end that bite. After a couple of those incidents, she stopped that behavior. I guess she didn't like getting shaken off, but I sure didn't like the bites! With Sarge Pepper and Francesca, that kind of weird unpredictable behavior never happens. When they bite, you know it's coming! I just try and prevent it, and if Sarge gets nippy, he goes on his tree stand and gets left alone for a while. That works! Sometimes if he gets too rambunctious, I give his tail a light tug, like a warning. He seems to understand that it means, "Chill". He responds well to that too. That's about the extent of punishment in our house. Right now I'm working with a yahoo help group with Francesca, our traumatized adoptee, and that group works with Dr. Friedman's teachings. It's slo-o-w going, but I think I am building up trust with Francesca.
Marie |
| macawdreams |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 22:45:52
Pamela, sounds like you have a great topic for our next roundtable! I'll start doing my homework. :)
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
| pbyeerts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 23:31:14
We have tried for so long to figure out why Nimo screams during breeding season and there just isn't an answer we can come up with. We too thought it was a contact call, but it isn't because he does it when we're right there with him. I'll start a new thread in a day or 2 on this and see what answers I get from this marvelous crew. In a nutshell, Nimo doesn't appear to be screaming for contact calls, because he's hungry, tired, or bored. And when we put him in the laundry room, he'll continue to scream for a little while and then he quiets down and we we bring him back out with us. Sometimes he begins screaming immediately after his time out, and other times he is just fine - playful and quiet. He is more prone to scream when Mark (his favorite person) leaves the room, which we know and can tolerate. Pamela
Pamela & Nimo |
| Toy |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 05:49:36
Mating calls for JaJaBinks are a weird raspy constant scream call. They almost sound like she is struggling/straining to get the sound out. It's a raspy garbled sound that reminds me of a person having a major asthma attack that also has a bad chest cold. The sound gets louder & louder until it's so loud the walls are cringing, LOL. I have learned to ignore it until it gets way too loud for my ears. Then I redirect her attention to something else.
Most of the time my birds are quiet. They have 2-3 times of the day they make sound for a few minutes & then it's dead silence. Jengo CAG seems to make more sound than the rest, as she goes thru her sounds/words/phrases like a broken record each day. Once she gets thru them all & has driven me nuts she stops. I guess she figures she's done her deed for the day, LOL.
Yes I agree they scream for a reason. Figuring out what the reason is isn't easy. Each scream sound has meaning. By studying my birds I've learned what they mean. Course playing the scream game with JaJaBinks & doing rooster calls with Jengo & Jasmine doesn't count right?? LOL. Hey we're having FUN :). OK I'm SICK, hehe.
Toy
Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. |
| macawdreams |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 00:34:05
Hi Pamela,
Many bird owners report that their birds scream for "no logical reason" but trust me, they DO have reasons but we don't always understand them. It could be mating calls or it could be his need to release energy.
I don't question why my birds scream, I just quickly work around it and keep them so busy and preoccupied that they don't have time to have screaming fits.
Have you tried putting him outside for some fresh air and sunshine?
Have you tried to stop the screaming before it starts? I can usually predict when my birds are gettng anxious and I nip the problem in the bud before it gets going. By the way, what does he do once he's in the laundry room? Does the screaming stop righ away?
Angie R.
Macaw Dreams Site Owner
"The future of Macaws starts here" |
| pbyeerts |
Posted - 03/08/2006 : 22:03:18
The only problem we have with NIMO concerns unneccessary screaming during breeding season. He will scream on and on for no logical reason we can discern. He has a sleeping cage (regular macaw size cage) in our laundry room and we will put him in there when he begins screaming out of control so we do not lose our minds and our hearing. Nimo likes his sleeping cage so I don't think this is really punishment. We're removing him from our living room so we can have some peace and quiet.
I believe that aggression creates aggression in macaws and life in general. If NIMO is all stirred up and I was to yell or physically threaten him, he would scream or lunge worse. The same is generally true with people. Pamela
Pamela & Nimo |
| spddy |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 21:17:41
hello everyone,
I don't call it punishment in our house. More like having a bad day or getting into trouble. Animals are just like us, they can have a bad day or wake up on the wrong side of the bed.It's just patience you have to have with them, so what i do when 1 is screaming, I check to see why first then i go from there, but most of the time it is for attention so i get them out and let them play. If they have a bad day where biting what they want then I just put them in their cage( what i call their room) for a few minute and go back to see if they have a change of mind and most of the time their like ok dad i want to go play.lol
My saying is think ahead of them.
Hope everyones fids are safe and healthy.
phillip |
| twobob |
Posted - 03/06/2006 : 13:00:45
touchy subject. i sometimes 'punish' our cag for biteing, not a real form of punishment, i just grab him by his head and hold him and tell him why i'm doing this and not to be biting. i've only done this when he was younger and it has worked, he no longer even offers to bite anyone, but if you try and rub him on his belly or back,he'll gently grab your finger, take it in his beak and move it and not apply any pressure to you finger at all. maybe it him just grownin up. i've also used this on our severe macaw and it has also worked well, no more biteing from him, he does the same thing as our cag. also our scarlet has learned by this 'punishment', but instead of removing your offending finger with his beak he will do it with his foot. as far as puttin them in their cage, we've never done that as 'punishment'. you know if they bite you why put them in their cage where their food and water is.
good subject angie and i'm sure we'll all learn from the different ways folks handle different situations with their owners. |
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